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u/APT1003 Apr 25 '24
health synergy and final shout can be "good" with the right build lol
protection, well yk...
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24 edited Apr 25 '24
Final Shout…no
Health Synergy is like a meta enchant
Edit: why am i getting downvoted? Does no one know how these enchants work? Lmao
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u/APT1003 Apr 25 '24
Shin's shadow retaliation build uses final shout
well, that's the only one and usually it's terrible in every way
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
I wouldn't call that build "good" though lol. Just that it makes use of Final Shout in a way that gives it reason to exist.
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u/Cyaniire Apr 25 '24
I think the only final shout build that works is mine because you don't have to hug mobs
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
It comes with its own weaknesses, though taking hits was the point of the build to begin with, just like my "Bug Zapper" triple Thorns build. If it doesn't work like that, it's no longer the build I made lol.
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u/APT1003 Apr 25 '24
basically its only usable uses is to bypass soul costs, not to bypass artifact's cooldown although it is supposed to do that (cuz cooldown is better)
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
Yeah but with the Soul Siphon buff, Final Shout is even more useless
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
Inexperienced players gotta learn somehow.
Though usually it's not through mean comments.
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u/adri_riiv Apr 25 '24
I remember the time final shout was meta …
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
It never was
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u/adri_riiv Apr 25 '24
Maybe you don’t remember or weren’t there
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
Final Shout has always been the same. Never buffed and never nerfed. It has always been garbage. Cooldown has always been better. The only reason why it was picked more was because people didn’t know how it functioned.
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u/adri_riiv Apr 25 '24
Your last sentence sounds like what a meta is
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
No. Meta means that it is the best thing to use. Final Shout was definitely not the best thing to use at all.
For Final Shout, you need to purposely lose health in order to use your artifacts. And if you don’t have a good way to heal, then you will easily die. And if you do have a good way to heal, then Final Shout will never activate. If Final Shout activates, then your build is bad. You also cannot spam the enchant’s mechanic, it takes about 10 seconds to recharge.
Cooldown is far better and IS meta. In apocalypse difficulty, it lets you have infinite Death Cap Mushroom and infinite Iron Hide Amulet and lets you use your other artifacts more often without needing to purposely lose health.
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u/adri_riiv Apr 25 '24
Let us agree to disagree then
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
Do you not know what meta is? Why an Encrusted Anchor is better than the Sponge Striker? How Potion Barrier is better than Protection? How Chilling + Snowball is better than Freezing? It is because there is a meta. Some things are better than others, that is just how it is.
I have explained how bad Final Shout is and how good Cooldown is. What do you not agree with?
Any other expert would say the same thing as me.
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u/adri_riiv Apr 25 '24
You do not seem to understand the concept of time. In the beginning, final shout was part of the go to strategy. But it seems that as you consider it to never have been the absolute best way to play you don’t count it as meta, which is where I disagree, it’s that simple
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
In the beginning, as in in Default and Adventure difficulty, everything “works”. Only because the difficulty is very easy. But that doesn’t mean that the enchants that are considered bad now were good in the beginning.
Like for example, MANY people like to put Swirling on a Whirlwind. And this is only because noobs like Swirling and “because Double Axes have a 360 degree spin attack, then it needs Swirling”, which obviously isn’t the case.
Another example is Protection. People only pick that because they either think that it works like in regular Minecraft or it is because it “gives you more defense”, which it obviously doesn’t.
So even though people pick those enchants, does not mean that they are good, no matter the difficulty. Those enchants were the “go to strategy” only because people didn’t understand how they functioned. And not knowing how something works is not the definition of what META is.
Meta means: Most Effective Tatic Available. Which means the best of the best. If something works efficiently well and is the best for long term use, then it is considered meta.
Final Shout does not fit in that category, as I have already listed all of its flaws. It is and never was meta.
And I do understand the concept of time, i have been playing for years. But no one in the beginning ever said that Final Shout was good except for the noobs that didn’t read what it did.
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u/Accomplished_Cherry6 Apr 25 '24
Meta means what players use, an item can be the strongest in the game but if no one chooses to use it then it’s not meta
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 26 '24
While this is true to an extent (Spears and Rapiers were not recognized as meta until after Flames of the Nether), there is a bottom level for this. Simply being used doesn't make an item meta, or else everything would technically be meta.
It has to be widely used, and widely considered good. But not only that. It would need to be widely used at high-level play. Those higher levels being things like potionless runs, no-healing runs, Banner/Trial runs, and finally Banner Trial runs. Those dictating the higher levels of meta (A tier vs S tier vs SS tier).
In Final Shout's case, you don't really find it in high level play. Not even as much on Apocalypse+. And definitely won't find it being run by players who run Banner Trials, except ones doing it for a challenge run.
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u/Accomplished_Cherry6 Apr 26 '24
If you’ve ever played clash Royale you know that this info simply isn’t true. There can be regional metas in a game (ie challenge runs vs general play) but the meta is defined by what the players play, not what is “the best”
In clash Royale this is represented by mega knight fire cracker and elite barbarians being highly played in midladder but not top ladder, so the meta in mid ladder includes those cards despite the cards not actually being that good
Maybe the top meta all these enchants suck, but for the average player they see plenty of use and are therefore they’re meta for the average player
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 26 '24
You clearly do not know what meta means
Do your research bud. You’re wrong
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24 edited Apr 25 '24
No it doesnt. I literally described what meta is. Ask literally any other expert like Shin. He would say the same thing. Meta means the best
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u/bigdogdame92 Apr 26 '24
It's been the same but other enchants, gear and mobs have changed. Where at some point it probably was good to use it
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
u/YOLO-Username that guy has both me and Shin blocked because “we give too much information on things.” Apparently, describing what an enchant does or whatever is “toxic behavior.” So I wouldn’t listen to him.
The guy always likes to talk smack about me every chance he gets. And he calls me an ass…
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u/mobiscuits_5000 Apr 25 '24
Protection, rip 🪦
Final shout is ok in early game. And fun if you want to make an AFK emerald farming build. But not worth using once you hit apocalypse plus imo.
Health synergy has its niche uses though 👍
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u/KnifeWifePeri Apr 25 '24
Me with full plate that has Final Shout, Thorns, Deflect, and unique built in Health Synergy while having Regeneration+ Shielding totems and iron defense amulet. All while armed with the unnamed Blade enchanted with Void, Burning, and Radiance, and the imploding crossbow with weakening, void, and poison cloud!
You were saying?!
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
Well, your build needs a lot of fixes
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u/KnifeWifePeri Apr 25 '24
Tell that to Apocalypse+25 Arch-illager…
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24 edited Apr 25 '24
I doubt it works or works well.
Edit: as an experienced player that has made over 300 fun builds, definitely not meta, I know the limits on what can and can’t work in late game.
Sure, maybe if the is level 300, then his build can survive in late game. But if it isn’t, then it is either not possible or he dies 3 times every time, or he can only survive in the easiest missions in the game (which there aren’t many).
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u/Tamaki_Iroha Apr 25 '24
Grimm especially is such an ass when giving mid tier advice
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u/YOLO-Username Apr 25 '24
🤣 He is definitely very black and white, there is no grey, but he's created 326 themed builds and is a pro at the game, so we have no standing to judge! :-/
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u/Tamaki_Iroha Apr 25 '24
Well I hold the second place in the broken citadel Speedruning category, and I have been playing since literally day 1 so I think that I do have quite good standing to judge.
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u/FooFightersBathwater Apr 25 '24
I like final shout specifically when I'm using the love medallion. It's gotten me out of so many dire situations
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 26 '24
Even then, there's much better ways to run Love Medallion. That's a build centered around it, and is able to get through Apocalypse+25 Daily Trials potionless (aside from using health potions specifically to activate Beast Burst).
What you have to consider is something's weakness. If 1-3 mobs are attacking you and you somehow drop below 25%, Love Medallion can save you in that specific circumstance. But what if there's more than 3 mobs, or what if they are enchanted? Love Medallion only works on up to 3 non-enchanted mobs, and it won't do its thing if those mobs are Creepers, because the explosion damage would kill you if you're low enough on HP for Final Shout.
The point is, that tactic can definitely work, but if you use Cooldown instead (and a more solid artifact than Love Medallion, despite me posting a video of a build centered around it), you can have a build that doesn't fall below 25% for Final Shout to even activate in the first place. Being able to reliably activate something without the need of falling into a dangerously low amount of HP is the more solid tactic.
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u/YOLO-Username Apr 25 '24
Right! I don't use final shout now since I have progressed in the game. However, early on it was a great survival tool when combined with the love medallion and totem of regeneration. I used to "need" final shout on any armor I used before apoc levels.
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 26 '24
That's the thing. No one is saying Final Shout cannot work. I have a build centered around it that works on Apocalypse+25.
The issue is with it being horrendously outclassed.
Take Love Medallion, for instance. It's not a high tier item by any means, but it can still be used on an effective build even for Apocalypse+25. But, you see that build doesn't use Final Shout. Double Cooldown with 2 Love Medallions gives far more tactical uptime for them, which helps me avoid ever falling into Final Shout range to begin with.
And that's the thing. Final Shout can work with certain artifacts (Harvester, Gong, Shadow Shifter, and other instant-action artifacts), but a build that doesn't fall into that critically-low level of HP to begin with would be better. This is true even for early game. If you did a build including (but not limited to):
Melee Weapon - Committed + Guarding Strike
Grim/Wither/Spider Armor - Snowball + Cooldown
Ranged Weapon - Looting + (Anything)
Iron Hide Amulet + Death Cap MushroomYou won't even fall below 25% HP to activate Final Shout, let alone needing to potion. That will always beat a build that necessitates Final Shout, which is why many players will advise others against Final Shout, because there are better/safer ways to go about using their artifacts to save their lives.
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u/ToncBlonc Apr 25 '24
I run final shout with mushroom, iron defense, and the gong. Basically, oh no, you hit me low health. Time for everything in range of my rapier to die.
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 26 '24
If you have 1 Cooldown at 200 power (or 2 Cooldown at about 130 power), Iron Hide Amulet and Death Cap Mushroom can be maintained infinitely at no cost. And Gong of Weakening has 12.4 seconds recharge with 1 Cooldown, and 7.7 seconds recharge with 2 Cooldowns. You'll never even fall down below half health, especially when using a Rapier that can prevent mobs from even hitting you.
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u/Really_cool_guy99 Apr 25 '24
I use healing synergy for my rolling build bc I’m constantly using my feathers
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u/delet_yourself Apr 25 '24
I got guarding strike and radiance on my thor's hammer. It works surprisingly well
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
Guarding Strike is fantastic. Objectively the best advantage you could gain from an enchant. Cutting mob damage in half is the same advantage as doubling your own damage, which is the biggest thing you could add to a Stormlander outside of healing.
Though, speaking of healing, Radiance is bad on it. It might work for you at your point in the game, but I also did a run with a Cursed Axe that had no healing on the build whatsoever and didn't need to potion, but I would always recommend a healing option on a good build. I was just doing a challenge.
In this case, Radiance healing on a Stormlander at 251 power would be 115,029 healing per second. Full stop.
Meanwhile, since it has a base DPS of 1,917,098 at 251 power, Leeching would give you 172,539 healing per second. Per mob. So by itself it's already 50% more healing, but if there's 3 mobs being hit, then it's 350% more healing.
And if you used the Stormlander on Spider Armor or Wither Armor instead (because they have Life Steal), you could replace Leeching for Voidstrike to use with Guarding Strike. Then you'd have 3,259,067 DPS, and have 195,544 healing Life Steal healing per second, per mob.
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u/delet_yourself Apr 25 '24
Im like around 50 power with my items, got hungry horror as armor with multi roll and speed boost on roll, for 50 power, my stuff is good enough. When i get to higher levels, i'll probably reroll my enchants, then again, they only have 2 slots, so i might have to farm stuff again
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
Yeah, like I said, that stuff can work for now. You can get away with a lot of stuff on Default and Adventure. Even Apocalypse. Mobs are slow and get hitstunned by every attack you land on them, so you're not taking much damage to begin with. On Apocalypse+25, mobs are 80% faster, do 50% more damage, have 50% more health, and your attacks will not naturally stun them. So they'll be landing all their hits without interruption, and will be doing more damage.
And even while it doesn't matter now, while the example I gave is 251 power, that's just for the sake of the numbers. Leeching is still 50% more healing/sec than Radiance is on a Hammer. Also Radiance can only activate once per hit, no matter how many mobs you hit at once. Leeching activates per kill, so if you're hitting 5 mobs, you're getting 50% more healing on the first mob and then 150% more healing for each other mob you're hitting.
So where Radiance caps at 115,029 healing per second, hitting 5 mobs in a group with Leeching would be 862,695 healing per second. At 50 power, Leeching would still be 7.5 times more healing per second in that scenario. Just the numbers would be lower.
And if you can get a hold of say Wither Armor (or Spider Armor) with Cooldown and Snowball, along with a Stormlander that has Guarding Strike and Voidstrike, you can coast through Adventure and Apocalypse without having to use a health potion, especially if running with Iron Hide Amulet and Death Cap Mushroom.
And that's when considering that a Stormlander is only a C-tier weapon. 1.9 million base DPS at 251 power is not good lol.
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u/delet_yourself Apr 25 '24
Yeah i had my fair share of apocalypse, but i felt like starting new because its been a while. But even then i didnt do much synergy and stuff, just went for max cooldown and fireworks brrrrrr with a harp bow that had accelerate, multishot and infinite
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u/ShinkuNY Apr 25 '24
That actually does have a fair bit of synergy lol. Even if unintentional. I've done a no-hit Fireworks-only run on Apocalypse+25 with mostly the same setup. The main difference was everything was gilded, and I ran Gravity instead of Accelerate, so that mobs were pulled into the explosions and held there in case they survived.
But with max Cooldown you get the most use out of the 3 Fireworks, and Infinity acts as not only an extra shot, but it acts as extra cooldown because the artifact starts recharging even though it's still in use. Very powerful.
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u/delet_yourself Apr 25 '24
Yep, and right now i got a harp bow with multishot and chain reaction. If only i had infinity on it, then i could spam big fireworks. Did some math, it has a potential to fire 125 arrows in one shot if all 5 arrows hit multishot, then all 25 arrows hit chain reaction. Extremely low chance, my best was 4 multishot and 7 chain reaction in one shot
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u/Definitely_nota_fish Apr 25 '24
If you're rocking a support build in a full party depending on which particular artifacts you've gone with for your support, build final shout can actually be really good, and depending on your artifacts health synergy is actually really powerful, why so many people just s*** on these enchants is beyond me, protection does deserve what it gets though
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u/GrimReaperAngelof23 Apr 25 '24
For Final Shout, you need to purposely lose health in order to use your artifacts. And if you don’t have a good way to heal, then you will easily die. And if you do have a good way to heal, then Final Shout will never activate. If Final Shout activates, then your build is bad. You also cannot spam the enchant’s mechanic, it takes about 10 seconds to recharge.
Cooldown is far better and outclasses it. In apocalypse difficulty, it lets you have infinite Death Cap Mushroom and infinite Iron Hide Amulet and lets you use your other artifacts more often without needing to purposely lose health.
A good support build would use Cooldown, not Final Shout. Even though Final can work, doesn’t mean that it’s good.
Health Synergy I do agree, it is really good
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u/Definitely_nota_fish Apr 25 '24
This was a long time ago but I did see a build with final shout that actually did pretty decently, I do not remember anything about it because this was over a year ago, also a lot of people who play this game don't have the patience or time to grind for a perfect armor set. So if you had the other two enchants you were looking for, final shout would be a suitable alternative to cool down If it means not spending actual hours grinding for another piece of armor or for for re-enchanting using gold
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u/Recurve_Acumen Apr 25 '24
I like final shout with Harvester and Soul Totem and Powershaker. Iuse a gravebane with Leeching so that I can mow through my opponents before it's cooldown finishes.
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u/SeniorAccountant6909 Apr 29 '24
so mean, there new and have only been playing with their own experiances so they will be a little bit dumb.
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u/theprotogod Apr 25 '24
you dont need to beat me up i beat myyself up enough mentally and physically you can only beat me physically i have learned the skill of ignoring other people
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u/Wendy_is_OP Apr 25 '24
If it works for you what does it matter if someone thinks it sucks lol