r/DecodingTheGurus • u/senzare • 4d ago
The recent wave of Born Agains
Recently we have seen a sudden surge of grifters embracing religion as an 'antidote to modern decay'.
While I understand ( to a degree) the powerful discourse around religion, many of the traditionalist values it pretends to uphold seem incompatible with these characters.
E.g. Russell Brand - accused of sexual harassment by multiple women Tate - human trafficker
The bottom line is I don't get the conservative mindset of people for instance They are willing to ignore Trump bribing a pornstar to stay quiet. I'm at a loss here , can someone explain?
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u/Apocalypse69 4d ago
I think it's a case of the demographics determining the content. They're looking at the engagement of their various posts, and grifters always follow what works. Do they believe in the Born Again stuff? Maybe! But I'd wager it's an opportunistic tactic to gain non-mainstream audiences, and it's probably based on audience data.
I've seen a lot of creators and online personalities "follow the likes" and they are sent down some dark paths to satisfy the viewers.
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u/metafish_42 4d ago
Religious people are easy targets because you at least know that they are gullible enough to believe whatever their pastor/priest/etc tells them.
All you need to do is give them a few pebbles of shared identity and you can begin exploiting and manipulating them at will.
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u/Suibian_ni 4d ago edited 4d ago
You aren't meant to read the Bible or live by it; you're meant to beat people with it until you get your way.
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u/predicates-man 3d ago
Hey man don’t you remember that verse by Jesus “don’t worry about tomorrow.” Nah bro I only know the ones about gay ppl going to hell
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u/redballooon 4d ago edited 4d ago
There was a time when their stories were interesting to traditionally conservative people.
But then their behavior came to light. Anyone with somewhat consistent morals shuns these people now.
Christians have a very selective way of forgiving wrongdoers (as long as they're cis white males), and when you ask Christians about the behavior of Trump or Brand you always hear exactly that — nobody is perfect, you gotta forgive the sinner, their values are what’s important, not the person, blablabla.
So in short, only the proponents of the highest virtues are ok with completely immoral behavior without consequences, as long as the sinner turns to god and says the right words.
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u/PublicCraft3114 3d ago edited 3d ago
People get born again in prison to get them out faster as the justice system has a religious bias. Other criminals get born again when allegations first arise because the justice system has a religious bias. Grifters tell their marks that they believe the same things their marks do because that makes them more money.
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u/Mr_Gaslight 3d ago
Brand and Tate are in legal trouble. Finding religion may sound when begging the judge to lower the sentence.
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u/BillyBeansprout 3d ago
Is Brand in legal trouble? Has there been anything more after that TV show? His reputation is in the dirt but is he facing any legal cases?
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u/batlord_typhus 3d ago
It's simple tribalism. Above all, cons see themselves as the righteous archons of morality and tradition. The ends justify the means in this case. No outsider to the tribe can question the moral authority or standing of any conservative. No outsider COULD ever question or have a moral standing above god's special chosen group. All accusations against members of the tribe are lies of the devil.
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u/Realistic_Caramel341 3d ago
Honestly, I think Trump is a slightly different case from the other two.
With Trump, its completely a mix between motivated reasoning and propaganda. Like it can be difficult to comprehend, but if you are getting your news from somewhere like Fox News your information diet is completely different from some who gets their news from a more reputable sources, where Trumps short comings and more frequently aired.
For the other two I think is somewhat because of Trump. In that Brand isn't really trying to sell his devotion to Christianity and Tate to Islam. Its that in both cases they are using religion as a signifier to a shift in a political allegiance.
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u/ProfessorHeronarty 3d ago
I think some of these guys doing it as a kind of camp thing. When you're part of the Peterson universe you better become a Christian. It's just what you do because of the woke attack and all that shit.
It's also worth pointing out that this obscure cultural Christian thing is going on for a while now. Those guys love the church as a historical building with guys wielding swords and all that.
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u/lpuckeri 3d ago edited 3d ago
Tribalism, audience capture, and a statistically more susceptible audience.
If you signal others that ur in their tribe you can basically get away with anything. As long as you paint a picture ur both fighting the enemy together.
Religion and politics are among the strongest triggers of tribal instincts. Jonathan Haidt whatever you think of him, has some good research on tribalism.
Research also shows the religious right tend to be the most guillible and receptive to bullshit.
Combine this and its not hard to see why misinformation peddling grifters target the religious right so often. If you take the demographic research and paint a picture of what would be the most susceptible group to bullshitting grifters and tribalism.. its the politically motivated far right religous. Thats where the audience and cheddar is.
Scammers and grifters have preyed on the tribalism and bullshit receptivity of the religious right for decades... this isnt new. Get rich bullshit grifters like prosperity preachers, faith healers, televangelists, alex jones types selling you supplements and shit off the back of conspiracies, the famous Amways tools cult scams and many more targeted these groups specifically for decades.
When others see the success of the grift, they join in.
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u/senzare 3d ago
That's interesting. There are clear parallels between conspiracy theories and religions. Both attempt to have overarching narratives about how the world works. The former as a response to the overdose of information, the latter as a mechanism of social control filling the lack of understanding they had.
Maybe the shift is not as dramatic. After all, I'd rather have a halo than wrap myself up in tinfoil.
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u/lpuckeri 3d ago edited 3d ago
Interesting take, i think the correlations between religiosity and conspiracy are from known confounders. Like lack of critical thinking skills, lack of science literacy, low analytic reasoning skills, uneducated, etc. These are found in both populations, which is why these two groups correlate. I know its offensive and i dont want to sound like an edgy atheist but its true and the research is undeniable...In simple terms poor thinking skills = stronger religiosity and conspiracy prone.
I think ur right, both are creating narratives of how the world works. Painting a simplistic picture in the face of complexity and misunderstanding. Conspiracy theories are a way of simplifying an incredibly complex world into simple overarching narratives of good and bad... If science is too complex for you too understand... a narrative of you cant trust mainstream biology or physics or virology etc is a simple way of squaring that and making you feel special and less ignorant. Just like people who didnt understand the natural world made up simple narratives and myths that made them feel special and less ignorant.
Research shows conspiracy is prevelant among the extremes, extreme left and extreme right gobally. In the US conspiracy flourishes a bit more on the right, as does religion.
So while far left and right are both conspiracy prone globally, and Brand was far left conspiracy initially, as Brand became more intertwined in american style online media and conspiracy his braindead psuedointellectual bullshit found its naturally larger audience.
I dont think Brand is going religious right because of these allegations. I just think people are naturally pulled towards the groups susceptible to their bullshit. Dumbass conspiracy anti establishment grifters like Brand find their biggest audience.
As for why wont the religous right excuse shitty people like Brand, Trump, despite espousing terrible values.. ide point to Jonathan Haidts research on tribalism, and how religion and politics can make people tribally blind.
Im too lazy to link all the studies and references, but can if you want to read.
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u/GratefulCabinet 3d ago
I have a family member that sold meth & fentanyl across our hometown for over a decade, got busted, never served any time, and now prances around our family gatherings all high on his new religious identity. This dude produced two children whose mom’s were on meth during their pregnancy and now refuses to vaccinate them. His “church” is super political, anti-gay, and just hateful basically. I think my family member embraced it as a way of saving his own ego. Instead of facing his shame and the consequences of his former life like one might in AA, he just skipped straight ahead to salvation. He dressed as a prison inmate for Halloween almost mocking his felon status. His Facebook profile is “I can look at myself in the face and be proud.” He only watches Rumble. I think this kind of moral degeneracy explains a lot of what we’re seeing.
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u/Redditmodslie 3d ago
People don't for Trump because they believe him to be a paragon of morality. They are well aware that he has spent the majority of his time on Earth as a wealthy NYC Democrat celebrity doing everything that lifestyle would entail. They vote for him because they believe that he, more than other candidates, is more likely to act on behalf of their interests.
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u/BrontesGoesToTown 3d ago
The common denominator between Tate, Brand, and the religious / social conservatives they're trying to sidle up to is misogyny. Full stop.
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u/Bluegill15 3d ago
So the thing you aren’t quite grasping about the mindset of these people is that they’re stupid.
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u/baeb66 3d ago
There is a mentality of embracing sinners in those communities, if you ask for forgiveness. It makes them juicy targets for bad actors.
The prime example of this for me is Jim Bakker. He went to prision. Got out. He attached himself to a black church that was willing to overlook his past transgressions. And the second Bakker could, he ditched them and went back into grifting.
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u/f_itdude79 3d ago
So many decisions can be traced back to money. These guys realized that you can carve out a comfy living by speaking to a small but dedicated audience of online loonies
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u/idealistintherealw 3d ago
I'm conservative too, and I don't get it. I left the republican party when Trump got nominated in 2016 and have never voted for him. At the time I thought his personal life behavior, public behavior, prior left-leaning stances that seemed to change when he wanted the GOP vote all disqualified him. I couldn't see why people saw something in him.
That said, from what I know, the research shows the right is more likely to be based on affinity. That means they like loyalty, "people like us", and they like consistency. As one comedian put it "The right is the reason Applebees is so popular."
So these guys have found an audience in vaguely paranoid right wing conspiracy people who are highly Christian. You want them to forgive YOU for YOUR sins. What better move to make than to get born again?
I don't mean to be sarcastic, I do claim a John 3:16 born again belief. One person who is really interesting and worth looking up is Chuck Colson, who was born again right before his prison sentence, then got involved in prison ministry, and kept it up after he got out. I read his first two books; he went on to live the next 30 years in a consistent way that demonstrated his integrity. Like the guy or hate him, he lived a life that showed his conversion was true.
Is Brand sincere? I have my concerns, but I can't be certain. Time will tell.
I don't think it'll take 30 years for us to know. My guess is less than ten.
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u/itisnotstupid 3d ago
Life is hard and has always been hard and some people can't handle it. They create this vision of the ''simpler times'' where women all wanted to find a man no matter what, you could have worked a ''simpler'' job and not be so competitive and still ended up with a family and a job. Of course this was not the reality but this is how they imagine it. This romanticized version of the past becomes an escape of the fact that their lifes suck now and they can't handle the pressure.
The whole ''trad wife'' trend is exactly that. Selling a dream to people who are in a crisis.
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u/Unsavory-Type 3d ago
“Can nothing slow the berserk white trash momentum of the guns and Jesus crowd??”-Hunter S Thompson, pretty sure from Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972.
This has been going on for a long time. Sorry for my awful grammar
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u/Who_Is_Avi_Kahan 2d ago
They forgave the catholic church, and were ardent defenders of pedophile priests(like trumps spiritual adviser).
What more do you need to see? You don't need to be a libertarian to be an open pedophile, just become a Christian nationalist or have connections with "intelligence" a la epstein.
Look up trumps comments on epstein, they were friends and neighbors, and the new Christian fascists don't care.
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u/Necessary_Position77 2d ago
Part of me wonders if there’s a shift towards “tradition” and “religion” as a control tactic. There seems to be a push to “occupy” and “motivate” men in useful ways. Theories exist that marriage was originally used to reduce criminality and violence in low status single men. Dating platforms are proving that certain men have little need to commit while others have no chance in getting dates.
I suspect in the case of many gurus it’s for selfish reasons but many of them seem to be playing to a single narrative which is perhaps being boosted by ultra-wealthy backers.
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u/gorillaneck 3d ago
i’m noticing a big surge of catholicism on the far right which is extra bizarre to me, the american right is traditionally very anti catholic but i see this as part of the heavy europeanization of our politics in the last decade.
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u/mskmagic 4d ago edited 3d ago
Because meaning is important to human beings. Since the West has lost sight of giving people meaning in their lives, religion is filling the gap.
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u/senzare 3d ago
I get that and it's not what I asked. Are any of those I mentioned pietous or caring human beings? No, so the question remains unanswered.
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u/mskmagic 3d ago
First of all the search for meaning leads people, often, to religion - which is the answer to your question. How good they are at observing said religion is another matter.
Secondly, people who have 'sinned' in the past are probably even more likely to pursue piety in their search for meaning later in life.
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u/clackamagickal 3d ago
They are willing to ignore Trump bribing a pornstar to stay quiet. I'm at a loss here , can someone explain?
You've had 8 years to figure this out. Says more about you than 'them'.
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u/senzare 3d ago
Instead of patronising me you could explain it, if it's that simple for you?
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u/clackamagickal 3d ago
This is what church is:
a. you're a sinner
b. come back next weekThat's it. Over and over again. There is no hypocrisy here; it's a perfect fit for youtube and podcasting and political campaigns.
But notice how many people here would rather attack the church-goer than the format:
"They're statistically more susceptible but not me"
"They're gullible and receptive to bullshit but not me"
"They're online loonies but not me"
"They're simple tribalists but not me"These but not me people have never been able to figure out why only 50% of politicians represent them. Ongoing mystery. It's almost like the mArKetPLaCe of idEAs creates equilibrium rather than great ideas. But nevermind that.
One guy here suggested people want meaning. We downvoted that asshole. Ha!
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u/CovidThrow231244 3d ago
But what about >They are willing to ignore Trump bribing a pornstar to stay quiet. I'm at a loss here , can someone explain?
Them being willing to ignore Trump bribing a pornstar? Are you saying that since they are predisposed to perceiving themselves as sinners they absolve the donny boy of his sins?
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u/WinterOffensive 4d ago edited 4d ago
Completely out of my ass, but it seems like the attempt is to get as many bodies between themselves and the consequences of their actions as they can. For example, in Brand's case, it feels like he's trying to cater to these religious types in the hopes that they defend him, so he won't have to give up whatever perks he has and become a normie. Idk just a shower thought.